Kintsugi - The Art of Recovery
In this conversation our guest this week is Isabelle Serafin, a clinical case manager, along with us, your hosts, Monica and Dylan, discuss our experiences in addiction and recovery. We delve into the role of art in recovery, the significance of engaging in hobbies, and the challenges we faced in early recovery. We also explore the impact of identity on addiction and recovery, the reality of relapse, and the importance of representation. Additionally, we highlight the disparity between sober living and halfway houses, emphasizing the lack of available options for women and the hurdles they encounter in accessing gender-specific substance use treatment. We stress the need for more equitable access to recovery resources, advocating for government legislation and grants to support women's sober living. Our conversation also touches on how individuals can contribute by getting people into treatment, carrying Narcan, and staying informed about addiction. We underscore the importance of compassion and understanding towards those suffering from addiction and acknowledge the role of social media in providing hope and support.
Takeaways
Engaging in artistic spaces has helped me in recovery, allowing me to regain my sense of humanness.
Having hobbies and creative outlets has been a crucial component of my recovery journey.
Meeting people where they're at in their recovery is something I've found to be crucial for providing effective support.
Relapse is a common part of my recovery story, but I've come to understand that it is not inevitable or necessary for everyone.
Representation and diversity in recovery spaces are personally important for me to see myself and find hope in my own recovery. The significant lack of available sober living options for women has made it challenging for me and others to access gender-specific substance use treatment and recovery resources.
Improving access to recovery resources for women requires government legislation and grants that prioritize women's sober living and address barriers like insurance coverage and location.
I can contribute by getting people into treatment, contacting admissions at treatment centers, and providing support and resources to those in need.
Carrying Narcan and staying informed about addiction are ways I can support the recovery community and potentially save lives.
Exercising compassion and understanding towards those suffering from addiction, and staying informed about the issue, can help break down stigmas and promote empathy.
Sharing my personal recovery stories and milestones on social media can serve as a beacon of hope and inspiration for others who may be struggling with addiction or related issues.
Isabel's Instagram: @IsabelSerafin
Follow us at: @BloomScrollingPodcast
Chapters
Introduction and Background
The Role of Art in Recovery
Finding Humanness in Artistic Spaces
Engaging in Hobbies and Rediscovering Passion
Connecting People to Recovery Resources
The Importance of Focus in Early Recovery
The Challenges of Externalizing and Personal Responsibility
Meeting People Where They're At in Recovery
The Importance of Breakthroughs in Recovery
The Role of Identity in Addiction and Recovery
The Reality of Relapse in Recovery
The Impact of Identity on Addiction and Recovery
The Importance of Representation in Recovery
The Difference Between Sober Living and Halfway Houses
Lack of Availability of Sober Living for Women
Resource Desert for Women Seeking Recovery
Improving Access to Recovery Resources
How Individuals Can Help
Carrying Narcan as an Ally
Exercising Compassion and Staying Informed
Being a Beacon of Hope
Would You Rather: 50 Duck-Sized Horses or One Horse-Sized Duck?
Transcript
Welcome to the Bloom Scrolling Podcast.
2
:Hi, I'm Monica.
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:And I'm Dylan.
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:We hope to inspire our listeners by giving
a platform to those doing important work
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:in service to others.
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:We believe that even the smallest actions
can help invoke lasting change.
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:Less doom, more bloom.
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:In our very first episode today, Kintsuki,
the art of recovery, we're talking to my
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:good friend, Isabelle Seraphine.
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:She's a great friend of mine.
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:She's a certified recovery coach who's
been working in addiction treatment for
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:the past two years both in sober living
settings and Residential substance use
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:treatment.
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:She also has six years of experience
working in the municipal and state
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:politics in various capacities.
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:Isabel identifies as a queer woman of
color.
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:as well as a person in sustained long
-term recovery.
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:Isabelle also serves as a board member for
Colorado Artists in Recovery, a statewide
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:nonprofit which facilitates arts and
wellness programming for people seeking
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:recovery from addiction and mental health
issues.
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:And I want to thank you all for being
here.
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:We had a lot of fun doing this and we're
looking forward to making more episodes
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:soon, so stay tuned.
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:It's love like we're dying
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:you
26
:All right, so welcome to the very first
episode of Bloom's Girling.
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:You are our very first guest.
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:Who are you?
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:Esteemed.
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:My name is Isabelle Seraphin.
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:Professionally, I work as a clinical case
manager at a residential substance use
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:treatment center.
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:I am also a person in long -term recovery.
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:Mostly from alcohol, but I consider myself
an equal opportunity drug user.
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:And I've got a little less than two and a
half years sober.
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:I've done some work in the political
world.
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:And also I work with Dylan, which is how
we know each other.
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:Hi.
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:What do you do at the residential
substance use treatment center that we
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:work at?
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:At the residential substance use treatment
center that we work at.
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:I do detox counseling, do a lot of intake
assessments, do a lot of bickering back
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:and forth with you.
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:Yeah, actually.
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:I also run the Young Adult Group, which is
a lot of fun.
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:And also the HOPE group, which is our
opioid group that we do, which works
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:because I'm in recovery from opiate
addiction.
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:I have.
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:All the five years sober in June, which is
really cool.
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:And don't clap.
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:We're recording.
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:Congratulations, both of you.
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:Thank you.
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:You can keep going.
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:I interrupted.
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:I'm sorry.
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:It's so...
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:It's all right.
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:I'll cut all this.
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:I don't think you should.
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:OK, so yeah, I've been...
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:You can bleep it.
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:You're doing the post.
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:Just bleep the name.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:Continue.
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:Bleep.
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:You've been at the Residential Substances
Use Treatment Center for how long?
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:I've been at this place for, I think it'll
be two years in March.
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:Wow.
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:So you've been there almost as long as
I've been sober.
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:Yeah.
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:I think you were just leaving.
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:Oh my God.
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:As a client when I had showed up, I think
it was probably just a few months.
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:That's crazy.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:But we had actually met quite a bit before
that, before I started working there too,
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:because you, another thing that we have in
common, I get, well, I don't know if I met
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:you at the open mic nights, but you work
at another treatment center where I do
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:work for one of the other organizations
I'm involved in, which is Colorado Artists
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:in Recovery.
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:They put on free arts programming for
people in recovery from mental health and
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:substance use.
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:And I am see the open mics there and
you've played the open mics.
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:I don't know if that's how I met you, but
that is another thing that we have in
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:common is being musicians more or less in
recovery.
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:That's not how we met, but it's fine.
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:All right.
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:Did I meet you?
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:What came first?
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:Is you performing at the open mic or?
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:Because I've been at those open mics.
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:I 100 % probably saw you there.
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:But then I brought a meeting up to the
treatment center.
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:I don't think you're up the one or two
that I went to.
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:No, I met you when you brought one of the
meetings up.
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:OK.
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:Yeah.
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:Because I'm also a member of 12 step,
which we also can't say by name.
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:I don't know what step you're talking
about.
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:Why not?
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:Inanimity.
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:is the spiritual foundation of all of our
traditions, ever reminding us to place
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:principles before our personalities.
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:Are we even talking about this?
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:Well, we can say 12 -step.
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:Yeah.
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:Well, I think that's important too,
because the treatment center we work at is
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:12 -step based, and that'll be part of
what we talk about today, is like 12 -step
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:programs in general, whether it's AANA,
CMA.
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:I can say I'm a member of one of them,
probably.
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:I think it's fine.
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:How many steps are in your...
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:Program 12.
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:Oh, cool.
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:Okay.
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:12 steps.
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:Do you still do the open mics?
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:Yeah.
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:At the other recovery centers?
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:Is it treatment centers?
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:Yeah.
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:Cool.
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:I do.
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:Yeah, there's, there's like two that I
regularly attend, but going to those open
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:mics and having like an additional
component to recovery besides just
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:12 step meetings and sober living and like
the clinical piece of things.
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:That was really important to me, feeling
like I was a human being again and not
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:just like, I don't know.
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:I think there is something about early
recovery that can feel almost like
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:dehumanizing.
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:You're humbled pretty substantially, which
is necessary, but I feel like engaging in
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:artistic spaces, that's where I started to
get like,
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:um, my humanness back, I guess.
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:I don't know, Dylan, would you say that
that was your experience at all?
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:Well, I got my first treatment job from
showing up to that open mic, which is kind
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:of a cool story, you know, just showed up
and said, Hey, I was in, I'm in recovery
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:and I wanted to work in the field and, um,
it was LB actually.
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:I just.
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:name dropped.
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:Should have her on the pod.
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:She's great.
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:I thought she said her name earlier, but
we weren't recording.
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:So sorry.
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:Anyway, yeah, I just shot her a text and
she said, yeah, we'd love to have you.
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:And that was my first job in treatment.
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:And also, like I did my recovery skills
today, which is all based around music as
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:well.
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:And just kind of.
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:kind of going off of active listening and
listening underneath, you know, listening
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:to the lyrics, trying to see, hey, what's
this artist talking about?
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:You know, like, and obscure questions,
like what color would the song be, you
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:know, and make them think in a more
creative way, like a different way than
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:they might not have before answering
questions like that.
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:And also just kind of just rediscovering a
passion in recovery is huge, you know,
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:like I talk about my music.
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:and my band and how integral integral
integral that is to my recovery.
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:You know, having that outlet, having that
creative space, the community of artists,
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:which is really cool.
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:And I don't know, just something really
fulfilling to spend your time on, you
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:know, rather than whatever else we were
doing out there running and gunning and
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:being.
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:uh, something degenerates.
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:Thank you to society.
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:Did you, um, did you like form your own
model for your discovery skills, skills
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:class?
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:Um, is that something you came up with on
your own or was there a template that was
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:already in place?
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:Uh, it was all mine.
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:Actually.
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:Uh, I even made a form on Google sheets or
was it word Excel?
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:Excel, not important, I guess.
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:But yeah, no, I had a lot of fun coming up
with the questions and they developed over
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:time, you know, like they changed over
time.
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:I was a little too specific with some of
the questions because I said things like,
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:oh, what, like, is this a major minor
scale?
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:And people were like, I don't know what
that means.
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:And then I was like, OK, remove that.
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:What instruments do here?
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:And all they know.
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:as guitars and drums, you know, and so
that was always the same answer, even
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:though that's not.
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:One say that's all that there is.
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:Yeah, because bass is irrelevant,
honestly.
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:But not to say that it's not, it doesn't
have its place.
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:You know, I know you're learning bass
right now, so.
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:Yeah, that's one thing about recovery is
like endlessly picking up hobbies that
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:I'll probably never finish.
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:Yeah, I'm trying to learn the bass, trying
to learn the piano.
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:Mostly songwriting is what like helped me
connect to my recovery though.
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:I think there's something really valuable
and that's, I mean, part of what I love
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:about working at a residential facility is
that you're there for these really
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:critical moments in people's lives and in
my own recovery.
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:Cause I went to the treatment center where
I work at now.
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:I went there in 2021, in November of 2021
and like,
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:I'm sure there were people there that
maybe remember me, but I definitely
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:remember like the clients that I work
with.
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:There's these moments that sometimes we
get to bear witness to, to where they like
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:make this really real connection to
something that's gonna be meaningful to
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:them in the longterm.
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:And being in case management, that's
something that sometimes I get to directly
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:connect people to, right?
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:Like.
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:because not only do I help set them up
with clinical aftercare, like intensive
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:outpatient therapy, I can set them up with
that, or they're individual therapists
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:that they might work with for years
afterwards if I do my job well.
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:But I also get to set them up with
organizations like Colorado Artists in
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:Recovery if they have any inclination
after listening to Dylan's Recovery Skills
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:Group or doing one of the open mic nights
up there on campus, if they're like, oh,
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:this kind of lit me up in a way that I
haven't felt.
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:before or haven't felt since getting sober
or what have you, then I get to help
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:connect them to that too.
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:And that's so cool to be a part of.
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:That is so cool to know that you can just
kind of, I don't know, move someone along
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:in their journey.
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:Cause I think there were a lot of things
in my own journey that took me longer than
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:they needed to.
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:Do you ever hook people up with jobs?
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:Like you both went to...
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:the place that you're working right now.
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:Do you ever, yes?
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:No.
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:No.
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:People try to get jobs while they're
there, but I think so like, and it's
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:interesting because that's a very, that's
something that people are usually very
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:concerned about.
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:And there is a huge overlap between like
coming back from.
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:like rock bottom in addiction and poverty.
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:So while I do not set them up with jobs,
the main reason being that like they need
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:to focus on getting well first.
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:They have like 30 days that's very
different usually than what most people
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:experience in their life, which is like 30
days where it's just you focusing on
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:getting well.
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:You don't have to focus on making money.
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:You don't have to focus on making your
meals.
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:You don't have to focus on, a lot of
people don't even focus on.
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:Like getting ready, right?
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:Doing their makeup, stuff like that.
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:So they definitely don't need to be
focused on getting a job.
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:So hopefully, again, if I do my job well,
I can set them up in a place like Sober
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:Living, which will scholarship their first
month so that they can focus in that 30
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:days on just getting well.
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:And then when they get out and they get
into a supportive recovery environment
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:like Sober Living, which is part of my
story, I spent a long time in Sober
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:Living.
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:They get there and then they have another
month to focus on getting like a recovery
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:job.
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:And I have air quotes around that because
usually that's like a part -timer at
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:Starbucks that, you know, will pay for
what is typically a lower rent than most
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:rents out here in Colorado.
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:And sometimes the scholarships are even
tiered too.
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:So it'll scholarship like 100 % of your
first month and 50 % of your second month
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:and then 25 of your third month.
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:So it's...
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:even a little bit more cushion so you can
just focus because when people start to
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:get distracted by like, oh God, I need to
like figure out what my career is gonna be
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:for the rest of my life, even though I
just made it back from the brink of death,
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:people get into long -term relationships
and like really early recovery, like rehab
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:romances, right?
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:That's its own trope.
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:It's such a liability that we can see like
people like Dylan and I in long -term
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:recovery.
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:we can see how important it is to like
have that really sole focus.
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:Cause I think that's something that we
share in common with our stories.
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:It's like really for the first year I had
to like eat, sleep and breathe recovery.
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:And it really took me that much time.
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:Although part of my doing my job well too
is that recognizing that not everyone has
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:that luxury.
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:There's particularly working on the
women's side, a lot of people who have
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:children and...
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:you know, unless you have your kids taken
away, which happens a lot.
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:You know, sometimes life just has other
obligations for you.
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:But we try to get them as close to focus
as they can, as close to comfortable as
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:they can be so that they can focus.
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:Yeah, it's really easy to externalize, you
know, and just it's like sometimes it's
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:like anything to not look at myself, you
know, so if that's spending.
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:12 hours on Indeed in between groups so I
don't have to think about my life and
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:process whatever I need to to get better.
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:We see that all the time.
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:Yeah, and it's like, especially people
that come back in, they're like, well, I
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:relapsed because of my husband.
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:I relapsed because I hated my job.
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:And it's like, you relapsed because you're
an alcoholic or an addict and you're
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:powerless over this disease that I'm also
powerless over.
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:But I can see that.
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:And it's also not really our job to tell
people that.
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:To tell people like, no, you're
externalizing.
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:Because you have to meet people where
they're at.
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:So if I have a client that comes into my
office and they say my problem was my job,
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:well, I can't tell them, no, your problem
is you.
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:Because they're not going to receive that.
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:Do you hint towards it?
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:I mean, sometimes, but like, I...
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:to shut someone down and diminish trust if
I'm also the person that they're trusting
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:with the resources that they're going to
use after treatment.
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:So if I can avoid telling them that they
are the problem and let them know like,
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:well, if your job was stressing you out,
maybe you should quit your job and I can
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:get you a scholarship for sober living
that'll keep you comfortable for a month
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:while you look for a new one.
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:Right.
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:That's a much better way to redirect
something to.
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:the same end result than being like,
you're the problem, get your house where
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:it needs to be, you know?
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:And that's what like meeting people where
they're at looks like sometimes for me.
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:Dylan, you work in a different capacity.
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:So like, that looks different from you.
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:You have different objectives as a
counselor that I have as a case manager.
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:My job is really to get them to say yes to
the choices that I feel like are.
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:conducive to their recovery, but also
economically and logistically feasible.
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:And so I try to marry as many like healthy
clinical recommendations as I can with
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:what their life practically looks like.
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:But Dylan's job isn't necessarily to do
that.
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:It's to bring people closer to like having
those, what like the big book calls like,
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:I mean, spiritual experiences is one word
for it, but.
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:Breakthrough?
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:Yeah, I mean like a breakthrough, right?
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:Those realizations internally.
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:Yeah.
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:What do they call it in the big book?
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:What does Dr.
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:Seppert call Psychologic, psychic change.
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:Oh, profound psychological change or
something like that, yeah.
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:But I mean, we work in tandem too, and
that's what I like.
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:We'll get together and kind of come up
with a game plan for like.
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:how we want to approach certain things
too, which I think is really helpful.
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:Like being on the same page and knowing,
hey, this is what this client said in this
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:introduction.
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:This is what I'm feeling.
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:I think you might be able to push them
towards sober living, or maybe I think a
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:virtual IOP might be the only thing that
works.
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:Or people probably don't know any of these
terms we're talking about right now
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:either.
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:I just realized, but that's fine.
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:I want to hear about...
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:your experience so far.
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:In recovery?
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:Yeah, just the general essence of that
journey for you.
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:Well, I was being very selfish and
drinking to die.
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:And I thought that that's who I was.
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:And I thought it was kind of glamorous and
I thought it was cool.
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:And I was like, yeah, I feel all the
things and I'm...
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:I'm the saddest person that's ever lived.
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:And then I met Dylan and he was like, told
me his story about, he was like four years
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:sober when we met.
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:It was like that same month.
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:Oh wow, yeah.
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:I just got four years.
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:Yeah.
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:And I was like, well, you were, you're
living on Capp Hill and you were an IV
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:drug user and I could probably kick.
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:alcohol if you can do all of that and it
was pretty inspiring and I stuck with it
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:because you got really mad at me when I
relapsed and I was not a nice person.
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:So it definitely helped to like have that
mirror of somebody that's been through it
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:and he's like so like a little bit fed up
with me.
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:He was like what are you what are you
getting out of this basically?
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:Well, it's interesting too, because I
think, I mean, outside of clinical
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:treatment, just as a member of AA, there's
a lot more varying degrees to which people
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:come into like 12 step rooms.
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:I just doxed my program, but there's
varying degrees to which people come into
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:like 12 step rooms that are usually a lot
less dire than clinical treatment.
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:Because like,
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:If you came into treatment, that story
would probably be a little different in
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:the sense like I was living with my
partner and they kicked me out because I
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:was being so awful and they told me I can
either come to treatment or I can go fuck
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:myself.
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:Yeah.
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:What's cussing look like?
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:Yes.
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:Yeah.
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:OK.
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:Yeah, but like 12 step rooms, people will
be like, yeah, it's kind of ruining my
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:relationship and I don't like how I feel.
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:Because like you can go to a 12 step
meeting at any point in your life, you
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:know?
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:And that's not what gets everyone sober by
any means, but like, but I also hear just
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:in that short synopsis, a lot of
similarities, right?
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:Like I got sober at 22 and I'd been
drinking since I was 12 and that entire
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:time I was always drinking to die.
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:And,
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:And especially when I was drinking a lot
more, when I was drinking like two liters
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:of tequila a day, I was drinking almost as
punishment.
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:I wasn't drinking because it was fun or
because it was social.
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:I was drinking because I felt like I
deserved it.
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:And also, like, I couldn't really tolerate
the world outside of me.
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:And I think whether people like to admit
it or not, most people drink to cope.
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:Like,
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:even just what we consider like quote
unquote normies, like you have a bad day
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:at work and you say like, oh, I need a
drink.
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:Yeah, because you don't really want to
cope with the day you had.
393
:And it doesn't mean that you can't, but
that's just kind of how alcohol is used in
394
:our societies.
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:And I think for those of us that have more
traumatic lives or different experiences
396
:or different genetic predispositions,
397
:we get fed that culture and then we run
with it to a detrimental point.
398
:it's Miller time, you know?
399
:Like, you deserve this.
400
:Yeah, right.
401
:And so it's like, yeah, so yeah, you
deserve this on two fronts, right?
402
:You deserve this because you deserve
escape, but also you deserve this because
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:you deserve to die.
404
:It's really an abysmal point at its
darkest.
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:And so like, turning to recovery,
406
:I think that's part of what makes it so
hard is it's also a very foreign concept
407
:for a lot of people that drink the way or
have those thoughts or rationalizations
408
:for drinking.
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:Cause it's like, okay, well now I'm making
a good choice for myself and that's also
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:strange.
411
:And that's also foreign, you know,
physical dependency aside.
412
:Yeah.
413
:Cause we're comfortable like being
uncomfortable, you know, like, like you
414
:said, we feel like we deserve it.
415
:We like to sit in our own shit, feel sorry
for ourselves.
416
:Cause it's easier, you know, like we
don't.
417
:We don't have to face the demons and I
don't know.
418
:It just feels normal eventually until
terrible, just more terrible things
419
:happen.
420
:You know, it's just fucking, y 'all just
keep digging and digging and digging until
421
:you realize something's gotta change, you
know?
422
:And that looks different for everybody
too.
423
:That's what's so hard about like treating
this too.
424
:Like you need a multi -pronged approach.
425
:There's not one size fits all.
426
:We did the 30 day shake and bakes for
decades.
427
:Decades, you know, like let's just throw
them in residential treatment.
428
:They're there for 30 days and then we'll
just release them back into society and
429
:it's just like We that was not effective.
430
:That was not effective at all like how
You've been drinking heavily for 20 years
431
:and you think in 30 days like you're gonna
learn all this To stop like it's not
432
:realistic and then I don't know on top of
that I mean trauma therapy, you know, some
433
:people need that some people don't some
some people
434
:different sets of skills, different sets
of coping skills need to be learned.
435
:Like it's so difficult.
436
:And then on top of that, even tracking
success, right?
437
:Like what does that look like?
438
:We have no real easy way to determine like
if somebody's been successful, you know,
439
:down the road.
440
:Well, that's a good point.
441
:That can kind of segue.
442
:I want to hear what you were going to say
because it looked like you were going to
443
:say something, but that's kind of good
segue to the relapse conversation.
444
:Yeah.
445
:I was gonna say, well, what has helped you
the most and like whether or not you think
446
:relapse is a part of addiction.
447
:Like, is it normal for people to relapse?
448
:Sorry, Dylan, for setting you up.
449
:Yeah, well, I think, I mean, for me,
relapse is not a part of my story, but it
450
:played a huge part.
451
:especially being in sober living because
like being as far down the scale as I
452
:went, like no one is 22 and drinking two
liters of tequila in total liver failure
453
:and is like fooling themselves into
thinking that their life is okay, right?
454
:I was a pretty extreme case.
455
:And I also knew like that everybody around
me, especially the more I started going to
456
:meetings,
457
:that people were saying things like, you
pick up where you left off.
458
:And then people started saying that while
I was in treatment, like clinicians were
459
:saying like, well, you pick up where you
left off and that's just how addiction
460
:works.
461
:Like you don't get to restart when you
pick up the bottle.
462
:Like sometimes people get like two weeks,
two months, maybe even two years if
463
:they're lucky of like not quite as bad
drinking, but like you always get back to
464
:where you were and then you just cycle
from there.
465
:and that scares the shit out of me.
466
:So clinicians would tell you this?
467
:They wouldn't be like, oh, you've got two
years sober and now you relapsed and you
468
:should be proud of those two years?
469
:No.
470
:I mean, I don't think that people don't
say that, but like...
471
:I said that today to a client that just
relapsed and came back.
472
:Sure.
473
:Was it two years?
474
:Am I omniscient?
475
:So I don't think that that is typically
the rhetoric because...
476
:especially like in the rooms too, right?
477
:Like, because if we start saying that, I
think the fear is that people will kind of
478
:be given an inch and take a mile and think
that you can come back from it.
479
:And the fact is that like, not everyone
can come back.
480
:And a lot of people don't.
481
:And so the messaging by and large, I don't
think is that like, yeah, you can probably
482
:get away with like a couple of relapses
and we'll see you in a few years and
483
:hopefully make it back.
484
:Like that's not the message that we try to
put out there.
485
:But I mean, there's also a widespread
understanding that relapse is a big part
486
:of a lot of people's stories.
487
:And there's definitely no shortage of
clinicians at that same treatment center
488
:who relapse was a part of their story.
489
:And like, you know, just as many
clinicians that have the attitude that
490
:like it takes what it takes.
491
:And if relapse is a part of that for you,
then like,
492
:that's what's coming for you, but I don't
think that people for whom that's a part
493
:of their story are advocating for it,
right?
494
:Because usually it gets worse before it
gets better.
495
:And that's what I was afraid of.
496
:That's what I was afraid of.
497
:God, how much worse can it fucking get?
498
:Because I was really close to dying, like
really close to dying.
499
:I can absolutely remember what it feels
like for the life to be physically leaving
500
:my body more and more every day.
501
:Are you still dealing with like physical
ramifications?
502
:Maybe that depends on like the model of
post acute withdrawal syndrome, but I
503
:don't think, so like my body bounced back
pretty quickly from liver failure.
504
:It took about like nine months and my labs
were all coming back pretty normal.
505
:But again, that's cause I got sober at 22.
506
:And even though I had been drinking for
half of my life, that's still like a fifth
507
:of how long a lot of alcohol.
508
:are drinking for before they get sober.
509
:So the damage wasn't quite as long term as
it could have been and wasn't at that rate
510
:for as long as I had been drinking for.
511
:So like, it's not like I was drinking two
liters a day since I was 12.
512
:Yeah, it builds.
513
:Yeah, it builds for sure.
514
:But I think like, there's a lot of like
trauma that comes from active substance
515
:use too.
516
:And I certainly put myself in a lot of
517
:risky situations because there wasn't
anything that I wouldn't do for a drink or
518
:a drug.
519
:And that trauma is probably going to
follow me for a long time.
520
:So part of my recovery has kind of been
being like, okay, how do I not judge that
521
:person that was very sick?
522
:And like also recognize that I don't have
to be like seeing myself as a victim of
523
:that for the rest of my life.
524
:I don't know.
525
:That's kind of getting off track though.
526
:Dylan, what's your opinion of relapse?
527
:Just to be clear, when I said that to a
client, what I reinforce when I say that
528
:is it's like, because coming back after a
relapse, there's so much shame involved.
529
:There's so much introspection and it's not
good.
530
:We already have terrible views of ourself,
our self -esteem.
531
:The confidence is just tanked, especially
if you got a period of time, especially
532
:maybe six months to a year.
533
:I mean, that's huge.
534
:And that's what I tell them.
535
:Every single thing that you learned every
single day that you had sober was a
536
:fucking win.
537
:You know, that's another day you went out.
538
:You went without like using your drink or
drug.
539
:And that's huge.
540
:So like the one thing that you probably
won't agree with that I feel is that the
541
:stock that we put on sobriety dates or at
least the talk around relapse, I feel like
542
:it can be harmful sometimes.
543
:And there's arguments on both sides, for
sure.
544
:But I feel like and just from what I've
seen over the years is like the.
545
:The.
546
:The fucking cat, the cat, it makes it.
547
:I don't know, personally, it just it seems
like to people coming back, it keeps them
548
:from going to the rooms.
549
:I hear a lot for a while, you know, like
they know a group of people and they
550
:strung this time together and like they
were a pillar in that community, you know,
551
:and like.
552
:they slip up and they'll like, of course,
obviously the rooms aren't gonna judge
553
:them for that, right?
554
:But it doesn't feel that way.
555
:So it's just interesting because it's
like, I feel like you didn't lose
556
:anything, right?
557
:Cause that's the conception when we talk
about that a lot is like, oh, I lost all
558
:this time.
559
:And I just don't like that messaging man.
560
:Cause it's like,
561
:The reality is the National Institute for
Drug and Alcohol Abuse, the relapse rate
562
:is 85%.
563
:And it's 40 to 60 % in the first six
months.
564
:And then you sprinkle in IV users or
opiate users or drug users or just
565
:polysubstance users in general, that goes
even higher.
566
:So I think that...
567
:I don't know the answer.
568
:I don't know the answer to reframing any
of that.
569
:And I don't think it takes away the
importance of a sobriety date either, but
570
:it's just like, it's so hard to be the
outlier.
571
:Like you've really got to do the work and
you've really got to understand the
572
:reality of this disease.
573
:When I run the opiate group, I'm like, you
are rolling the fucking dice.
574
:Fentanyl wasn't in everything like when I
was using.
575
:So a relapse, it was like.
576
:It was rolling the dice anyway, but now
these days, like you're going to fucking
577
:die.
578
:You know, that's what I tell them.
579
:Like that's the reality, man.
580
:Like Narcan's good for the first 10
minutes, you know, after a fentanyl
581
:overdose and then after that.
582
:And it's like, it's just scary, man.
583
:You know, so I think I think that's more
to your point, too, though, is it's just
584
:being realistic, but also not like.
585
:realistic to the point where it's
discouraging.
586
:Right, yeah, no, you're not shaming.
587
:And I don't disagree with that, too.
588
:I've had a lot of sponsors like make some
incredibly dubious choices about their own
589
:recovery and like start engaging in like
dishonest behavior and like lying because
590
:they didn't want to reset their sobriety
date.
591
:And that's just as harmful to be clear to
your recovery as like picking up a drink.
592
:Right?
593
:Just outright relapsing.
594
:And yeah, I think it's, and that's the
thing is like, it's, I'm definitely
595
:speaking more from the side of like, what
do we tell people versus what's like the
596
:reality?
597
:Because again, like, if, like, I don't
know that I would have gone as hard as I
598
:did if,
599
:the messaging I had gotten on my first go
-round, alcohol being my main drug of
600
:choice.
601
:I don't know that it would have gone as
hard if people were like, no, you can
602
:relapse.
603
:It's probably gonna be okay.
604
:Like for me, I think I needed that fear in
my own recovery.
605
:And it's yielded a lot of like really
harmful implication, like a lot of
606
:perfectionism was just like really allowed
to flourish in that, in that.
607
:kind of context, but, but I also think
that there's a lot more people that like,
608
:it takes more than just one round of
treatment or like, you know, it really
609
:doesn't matter how many relapses it takes
if you make it back, thank fucking God,
610
:thank God.
611
:And then you have a chance at like long
-term sobriety.
612
:I think like the only thing you can't walk
back from is dying.
613
:So.
614
:To me as a person, relapses don't matter
and sobriety dates don't matter as long as
615
:you're still alive.
616
:It's just that like, you cannot tell
people that because we're always gonna
617
:think we're invincible and we're always
gonna think that we have one more use or
618
:one more drink or one more whatever.
619
:And I've seen that lead to like a lot of
people dying.
620
:And I think that's the other thing about
overdose too.
621
:And like, this is maybe a conversation for
another.
622
:professional is that like overdose is not
exclusive to addicts.
623
:Like I have a cousin that presumably
overdosed to our knowledge was not an
624
:addict.
625
:He was just doing Coke at ACL like a lot
of people do.
626
:Addicted or not and he fucking overdosed
and his friends who also weren't addicts
627
:and aren't a part of like our world who
got scared and just left him alone to die.
628
:Um, and I think that accounts for a lot
more overdose statistics too, then, uh,
629
:then we like to think, cause that's a lot
more real to people that, that aren't
630
:around this stuff every day.
631
:And so I think like overdose in and of
itself and like loss from addiction is
632
:almost like a completely different,
different topic than like recovery
633
:necessarily.
634
:Right.
635
:Yeah.
636
:I do want to say that.
637
:Well, since you brought that up though,
uh, there's a good Samaritan law and I
638
:think.
639
:almost every single state now, you know,
like I had, I had like three felony
640
:warrants and I had a friend fall out in my
car and it was just like, obviously his
641
:life is more important than me going to
jail.
642
:And it's like, I knew that there was the
good Samaritan law, right?
643
:And basically what that law is, is it's
like, if you're saving somebody's life, if
644
:it's an overdose, if it's a medical
emergency, like, and emergency services
645
:shows up and you got warrants, like you're
not going to get picked up.
646
:You're protected.
647
:You're protected through this because of.
648
:shit like that, you know, so anybody
listening just know that like save their
649
:fucking life, man.
650
:And even if you were going to go to jail,
you should fucking save their life anyway.
651
:Right.
652
:Well, does that protect you from
possession charges?
653
:Yes.
654
:Yeah, you won't get it.
655
:Everything gets you from every charge.
656
:But you got to you got to trust that the
police are going to like be on the up and
657
:up to you now, which is like, who knows?
658
:There's yeah, there's parameters around
it.
659
:If if.
660
:I would say like anyone that's listening
to this, if they believe themselves to be
661
:in situations where they might utilize the
Good Samaritan law, whether that's because
662
:you regularly use narcotics or maybe you
just party with people who do, just look
663
:it up and get a little familiar with it
because like there are boundaries around
664
:it, right?
665
:So only one person in any given instance
is protected by that law.
666
:So like if there's multiple people that
are using,
667
:and one person calls the cops, everyone
around you is not protected by that.
668
:So get them out of there.
669
:Get this.
670
:Everyone except for the person.
671
:Take your drugs and keep them safe and
don't.
672
:And then come to rehab.
673
:And then come to rehab.
674
:With us.
675
:Don't keep the drugs safe.
676
:Yeah, no, it's very nuanced.
677
:I think like there's no linear discussion
around like recovery and addiction that's
678
:had in a candid way.
679
:So like a recovery podcast that is.
680
:published by a treatment center, which
there's a lot of those out there, or
681
:published by an organization that promotes
substance use and mental health recovery.
682
:They're gonna have to say different things
than what we're saying right now.
683
:I think that's important to note.
684
:And that's a lot more understood among
people in recovery, but I do think it's
685
:important for some of this stuff to be
said out loud.
686
:And that's why we're not mentioning the
place that we were.
687
:And that's why we're doing this also.
688
:Yeah.
689
:To be real with people about it a little
bit.
690
:What are the percentages of fentanyl
relapse and then death?
691
:Like how many relapses lead to death?
692
:You say that sometimes you're like tempted
to tell your clients that like if they
693
:only like seven percent of opiate users
actually make it through recovery.
694
:Not exactly that.
695
:I think long term recovery, you know, it's
and it's less than 10 percent.
696
:And mind you, I'd have to fact check this
because these are statistics from like
697
:seven years ago.
698
:So it's probably lower now.
699
:Yeah, for sure.
700
:You know, and then you sprinkle in if
they're an IV user and then you sprinkle
701
:in math, which I was all three because I
just all or nothing, you know, and then
702
:alcohol too.
703
:It's even lower.
704
:So like I said, that's why I feel like
it's important.
705
:It's important to stress that a little bit
in the sense that like, I have to work
706
:hard.
707
:You know, like I have to take this
seriously and I have to do the fucking
708
:work because those aren't good odds and I
never fucking win anything.
709
:But well, I guess except being alive and
being sober.
710
:So that's a win.
711
:I'm a cat.
712
:I'm a cat.
713
:I'm a cat.
714
:One question I definitely want to ask.
715
:Yeah.
716
:And then.
717
:You can do whatever as far as, yeah, you
can whatever, follow your heart.
718
:And I think this is an important question
and it's one of the reasons why I thought
719
:you'd be perfect for this first episode,
you know, because like you have, you're
720
:able to speak on this stuff, you know, and
it's personal experience.
721
:And I talked to you about this question,
right?
722
:But how is your identity as a young adult
and a woman, person of color?
723
:and a member of the LGBTQ plus community
shaped your experience with addiction and
724
:recovery.
725
:Like what does that look like?
726
:Yeah.
727
:So that actually reminds me on segues very
nicely from what was just said too,
728
:because like speaking of statistics, when
I was in treatment, one of the, cause they
729
:bring in speaker meetings on Saturday
nights and the guy started his speech by
730
:being like, so,
731
:This long -term success rate for substance
use, like addiction recovery is like 7%.
732
:This treatment center is pretty nice.
733
:So maybe it's like 12 % of alumni stay
sober long -term.
734
:Now, if you're under the age of 25, knock
off a couple percentage points.
735
:If you're a person of color, knock off a
couple percentage points.
736
:if you are LGBTQ, knock off a couple
percentage points.
737
:And I was sitting in there, this was like
maybe my first week, maybe second of
738
:treatment.
739
:I still know like basically nothing about
recovery.
740
:And I'm like counting on my fingers.
741
:I'm like, I think I'm in the negatives.
742
:Like I have negative chance.
743
:And then he goes on to say to, you know,
like IV drug users have a higher
744
:statistical percentage of recidivism into
addiction.
745
:And,
746
:Even like tobacco users, nicotine users
have a higher risk of relapse.
747
:And those are just the statistics.
748
:But then he goes on to say, like, if you
do intensive outpatient therapy, which is
749
:this IOP we've been talking about, add a
couple of percentages back.
750
:If you do sober living, add a couple
percentages back.
751
:And then however long you stay in there,
the percentage increases.
752
:If you do AA in the long term, you've got
like a 30 percent chance, which is
753
:actually like double.
754
:what it is for just doing residential
treatment alone.
755
:And I was like, okay, so I'm not
completely powerless in this.
756
:It's not just about the fact that I just
happened to have gotten this a little
757
:younger.
758
:It's not just about the fact that like, I
happen to be a person of color, happen to
759
:be a queer woman of color.
760
:Like I actually do have some, some power
based off of the decisions I make right
761
:here right now in my first go round.
762
:And that's part of what motivated me.
763
:Besides just the fear of relapse, it was
like, okay, I know right off the bat that
764
:I'm at higher risk because of all of these
identity markers.
765
:So I'm gonna go hard as fuck in my
aftercare plan to make sure as much as
766
:humanly possible that there's like no
chance that I relapse, which is why I did
767
:literally everything you could do.
768
:But I did all of my aftercare in...
769
:Fort Collins slash Loveland, Colorado.
770
:So I walked in my first AA meeting and
within the first few meetings, I realized
771
:there was like no people of color.
772
:There's very few women, because this was
after COVID and like people were still
773
:coming back from in -person meetings.
774
:There's like no one under the age of 30.
775
:And I suddenly felt really alone again.
776
:And I was like, shit, does anyone like me
do this?
777
:Because it seems like it.
778
:I don't.
779
:It seems like, you know, those statistics
are pretty on the money.
780
:I think of myself as very lucky to like, I
think anyone that makes it into a 12 step
781
:room can consider themselves lucky because
if you put in the effort to like raise
782
:your hand and say you're a newcomer,
you're gonna be welcomed in with open
783
:arms.
784
:That is like a luxury that we're all
afforded if we just have the courage to
785
:like raise our hand.
786
:But I was no exception to that.
787
:They welcomed me in regardless of my
demographics and kind of showed me how to
788
:love myself.
789
:and made it a lot easier for this seed of
like otherness that was kind of planted in
790
:me from the get -go to be nurtured into
like motivation.
791
:Because I was like, well, the next, you
know, young person of color is going to
792
:need to see that at least like one other
fucking Mexican is sober in Fort Collins.
793
:The next like young woman that's under the
age of 25 is going to need to see me in
794
:there with more than just like a couple of
days strung together and know that long
795
:-term recovery is possible.
796
:the next queer young person, because
that's a battle in and of itself, even
797
:still.
798
:They need to know that it's possible.
799
:And they need to see more than anything
else just how much work went into it.
800
:Because that's the other thing I'm pretty
vocal about is how much work I put in.
801
:Because my story would not be a zero
relapse story if it weren't for the amount
802
:of work that I did.
803
:my story would not be a zero relapse story
if it weren't for the fact that I was
804
:perfectly situated to do all of the
components of aftercare that I did.
805
:And like all of the little accolades that
I picked up along the way, like getting
806
:recovery coach certified, finishing my
undergraduate degree, house managing a
807
:sober living, those things were only
possible because I did literally all of
808
:the work that you could possibly do.
809
:because I had no reservations left that I
had any better inkling of how to do life
810
:than the people around me that had long
-term sobriety.
811
:So that surrender for me was huge.
812
:I think that's not specific to my
identity, but there is a part of being a
813
:young woman of color that from the get
-go, I've always had this attitude of I'm
814
:not actually afforded the same luxuries as
other people, so why would my recovery be
815
:any different?
816
:Yeah, does that answer your question?
817
:Yeah, it does.
818
:Being a young person in recovery is so
important, you know, for other people to
819
:see because you're 30 and under.
820
:I remember I'm like, yeah, there's no
fucking way.
821
:You know, Dylan's not 30, by the way.
822
:You know what?
823
:He's over 30 and over now.
824
:Continue.
825
:I am.
826
:Yeah.
827
:OK.
828
:Thanks for that.
829
:It's my birthday next week.
830
:So, Jurassicophobia is alive and well
today.
831
:You were saying you remember being 30 and
under.
832
:Yeah, and just, it's discouraging as fuck,
you know?
833
:And like, shit, I relapsed a lot.
834
:And just knowing that like, I think I was
talking to you about this the other day,
835
:or you, or both, about if you go to...
836
:a certain meeting, like an opiate meeting,
whatever.
837
:And they ask, hey, who here's got more
than a year sober?
838
:It's not a lot of hands.
839
:And it's just, it's so nice to be able to
see somebody that age.
840
:And you really get through to them too.
841
:Like I see it all the time and they love
you.
842
:And the fact that it's like,
843
:Hey, I can still have fun.
844
:I can feel fulfilled.
845
:I can have a good life, like sand
substances, you know, like I don't need to
846
:party and like go drink all the time at 22
because that's what everybody else is
847
:doing.
848
:You know, I think it's really important
and it's really cool that you're a case
849
:manager too, you know, so just all of that
together is super important.
850
:And I think it's really inspirational to.
851
:through our clients is all I'm gonna say.
852
:Listen.
853
:I'm gonna be mean to you tomorrow.
854
:Yeah.
855
:Well, and I think that's a thing too.
856
:That's why I really love case management
specifically is like, cause I am the
857
:person that tells them the next thing to
do.
858
:And I remember sitting in my, thank God I
was desperate.
859
:Cause I sat in my case manager's office
and was like, you could tell me that I
860
:need to go to jail for the next six months
and I'd stay sober and I would do it.
861
:No hesitation.
862
:But.
863
:You know, my clients don't have that.
864
:They have me who's like, listen, I'm not
telling you this because like I'm making
865
:money off of it because I've got friends
that are profiting off of it.
866
:Because by the way, like no one is
profiting from addiction treatment.
867
:I'm sure somebody is, but it's not But it
is not me.
868
:I'm telling you this because this is what
I did.
869
:And like, I don't know how to get sober
any other way.
870
:Like I'm giving you my suggestion as an
addict, an addict who statistically had
871
:like zero fucking chance.
872
:Negative chance.
873
:Negative, yeah, thank you.
874
:Negative chance of staying sober.
875
:And this is what I did and it worked.
876
:So depending on how close you wanna get to
that or how much you see of yourself in me
877
:and in my story, you are more than welcome
to try to do as much as I did and I will
878
:help you get there.
879
:as much as you're willing to do, I will
help you get there and make sure it's as
880
:positive an experience as possible.
881
:You're going to the best of those places
that I can possibly send you to.
882
:Like I try to, yeah, make them see that it
is real and I'm not just pitching it
883
:because that's what I'm supposed to say.
884
:It's like, that is what I did.
885
:So you're like a big advocate for sober
living and I don't know if, cause I didn't
886
:know until.
887
:a few minutes ago.
888
:But what's the difference between a sober
living and a halfway house?
889
:And why did you find it so beneficial?
890
:Yeah.
891
:So halfway house is usually court ordered
in there, usually like bunk beds and the
892
:cockroaches and people smoking dope in the
bathrooms.
893
:And it's a terrible place.
894
:I was there.
895
:Yeah.
896
:I was in a room full of sex offenders with
childhood trauma.
897
:So that was great.
898
:You know, and.
899
:people overdosing left and right, it's
people who don't care if they're there or
900
:not, you know?
901
:Right, they're there because they have to
be there.
902
:And the facilities themselves are not set
up in a way to be like reinforcing
903
:whatsoever.
904
:And that's the thing with the carceral
system and everything attached to it is
905
:that it's not supposed to make you feel
good.
906
:It's not supposed to make you want to come
back.
907
:Sober living is supposed to make you feel
like you have dignity again.
908
:It's supposed to help you live in
909
:a supportive, peer -led environment in the
long term that is conducive to you getting
910
:your dignity back.
911
:So a lot of these houses, sober living
houses, not halfway houses, a lot of
912
:halfway houses are near homeless shelters
and are in lower income neighborhoods or
913
:very close to the prisons or jails that
people just got out of.
914
:Sober livings, by and large, are gonna be
in a residential area.
915
:It's like what I was telling you earlier,
it's like a multifamily home, single
916
:family home with like four or five
bedrooms, probably in an upper scale
917
:neighborhood to accommodate that level of
like space.
918
:There might be like an elementary school
across the street, you know, you probably
919
:wouldn't be able to tell.
920
:And so like, you know, the houses are
furnished, they've got like art up on the
921
:walls.
922
:and you are getting like, you ate on a
weekly basis and breathalyzed on a weekly
923
:basis.
924
:And there's a person living there full
time called a house manager who makes sure
925
:that you're in line.
926
:But I needed that accountability because
I, I couldn't trust myself yet.
927
:Like I had no reason to.
928
:I had never done anything in my life,
esteemable enough to like warrant trust.
929
:So, um, I think like,
930
:Being in an environment with other women
in recovery too is really helpful because
931
:they kind of taught me how to grow up.
932
:A lot of them had more time than I did,
especially like my house manager who is
933
:the LB that Dylan was talking about
earlier.
934
:She happened to be my house manager.
935
:Yeah.
936
:And she really showed me what it meant to
live in recovery.
937
:And you watch other women with the same
goal as you have.
938
:walk through adversity and walk through
like seemingly impossible situations and
939
:stay sober through it.
940
:And I just needed to know that that was
possible.
941
:And I needed to live with people who are
doing that and hear and watch how they
942
:were doing that.
943
:And it taught me how to keep my room
clean, which I had never done in my life.
944
:So that was helpful too.
945
:That's something I got out of being sober
too.
946
:30 years old and my house is finally
clean.
947
:Yeah.
948
:It's an amazing feeling.
949
:It's crazy.
950
:But you were saying also that the sober
livings for women, especially here,
951
:they're not as available.
952
:No, yeah, they're super sparse.
953
:And honestly, part of it could be because
for a long time there was this attitude
954
:that women can't be alcoholics.
955
:They certainly can't be drug addicts or IV
drug users.
956
:that was like a men's problem.
957
:That was like an attitude that people had
for a long, long time.
958
:There's also like stereotypes still and
maybe even statistics that support this
959
:that there's just more men out there who
suffer from addiction than women, which
960
:per capita, I don't buy it for a second.
961
:But in terms of services that are
available, like there's not even like
962
:gender specific.
963
:substance use treatment for women out here
that is accessible for most people.
964
:Like there's I think one place in Denver
that takes insurance.
965
:All of the other gender specific
programming for women don't take insurance
966
:because they're long -term programs.
967
:It's really prohibitive for most people.
968
:So God forbid you're like a woman with
trauma who cannot be in a substance use
969
:treatment center with men.
970
:God forbid you like need to be in sober
living that's close to your kids and you
971
:have to go to a house it's like,
972
:30 miles away because there's just
nothing.
973
:So there's a lot of really great women in
recovery specifically and some men in
974
:recovery too who are opening women's sober
livings with that goal in mind of making
975
:it more accessible and making it more
local to people who need it.
976
:But there's a long way to go.
977
:And like, don't even get me started.
978
:Like the number of sober livings that
accept women and children, fucking forget
979
:it.
980
:you're in a safe house if that's what you
need.
981
:With again, no focus on sobriety
necessarily.
982
:So it's tough.
983
:There's a huge resource desert for women
seeking recovery.
984
:What do you think needs to happen for that
to become more available?
985
:Is it government?
986
:Is it just people?
987
:Yeah, I think it's multifaceted for sure.
988
:I think just like most like.
989
:reasons for things becoming equitable.
990
:It's like government mandated, right?
991
:So I think that like, there needs to be
just more legislation around like
992
:equitable access to recovery resources in
general, like, and that includes coming
993
:for like insurance companies who keep it
prohibitive and keep it like the 30 day
994
:status quo, which again, statistically is
not necessarily effective.
995
:or at least not as effective as like 90
days, but also like requiring that like
996
:every company that opens men homes needs
to open a woman's home, like stuff like
997
:that.
998
:I don't know if that would be feasible
specifically, but there's a legislative
999
:component to it.
:
00:56:36,894 --> 00:56:40,694
And then I also think that like the people
that are forking out money to sober
:
00:56:40,694 --> 00:56:46,484
livings that are doing grants, I think
that they should prioritize women's sober
:
00:56:46,484 --> 00:56:52,014
livings, at least substantially enough to
where like people actually listen because,
:
00:56:52,014 --> 00:56:56,684
the same grants that award sober living
scholarships that prioritize IV drug users
:
00:56:56,684 --> 00:56:58,274
and people of color.
:
00:56:59,574 --> 00:57:03,864
That's certainly necessary, but it's only
for scholarships.
:
00:57:03,864 --> 00:57:06,724
It's not necessarily for like the houses
themselves.
:
00:57:06,724 --> 00:57:10,934
So I think the focus needs to change a
little bit on that.
:
00:57:10,934 --> 00:57:14,214
And this is speaking from somebody that
doesn't write the grants and doesn't write
:
00:57:14,214 --> 00:57:14,944
the legislation.
:
00:57:14,944 --> 00:57:19,694
So there's probably some of that already
out there, but it needs to be more.
:
00:57:19,694 --> 00:57:25,234
It just needs to be more because the need
is more than what we have access to.
:
00:57:25,274 --> 00:57:27,254
Yeah, you bring up a good point.
:
00:57:27,254 --> 00:57:32,014
Like from these from these settlements,
from these big pharmaceutical companies,
:
00:57:32,534 --> 00:57:33,394
billions.
:
00:57:33,394 --> 00:57:33,814
Right.
:
00:57:33,814 --> 00:57:36,054
And so that's being dispersed across the
US.
:
00:57:36,054 --> 00:57:40,704
But it's like it's kind of chaotic, you
know, and a lot of it's going to like
:
00:57:40,704 --> 00:57:44,794
residential treatment centers or IOPs and
stuff like that.
:
00:57:44,794 --> 00:57:46,990
But it's interesting because they don't
realize like.
:
00:57:46,990 --> 00:57:49,670
what happens after they leave the
residential treatment center.
:
00:57:49,670 --> 00:57:54,520
Maybe those people should get money too,
you know, or more of it, like, because
:
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:58,510
aftercare is huge, you know, so I think
some of that money should be funneled into
:
00:57:58,510 --> 00:57:59,690
sober livings.
:
00:57:59,690 --> 00:58:00,070
Yeah.
:
00:58:00,070 --> 00:58:04,800
And regulating sober livings in general is
like almost its whole own issue and making
:
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:08,920
sure that like the people running the
sober livings are running it ethically and
:
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:13,020
safely, and it's not run by people who are
trying to turn a profit on people trying
:
00:58:13,020 --> 00:58:15,060
to get well, like that's.
:
00:58:15,060 --> 00:58:21,430
Sober living as an industry, because it's
not clinical necessarily, is fraught with
:
00:58:21,430 --> 00:58:22,680
its own set of issues.
:
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:26,270
And there's regulatory boards that could
probably be tightened up a little more.
:
00:58:26,270 --> 00:58:28,710
And there's always improvements to be
made.
:
00:58:29,390 --> 00:58:36,110
It's a field that is directed towards the
most vulnerable of populations, which
:
00:58:36,110 --> 00:58:38,550
traditionally are taken advantage of.
:
00:58:38,550 --> 00:58:42,322
So our listeners, the laymen.
:
00:58:42,734 --> 00:58:44,894
or lay ladies.
:
00:58:46,194 --> 00:58:48,614
The lame men.
:
00:58:48,614 --> 00:58:50,054
The lame men.
:
00:58:50,054 --> 00:58:57,274
The lame men and women who are listening
to this podcast right now instead of doing
:
00:58:57,274 --> 00:58:59,114
drugs or something cool.
:
00:58:59,114 --> 00:59:00,354
Maybe while they're doing drugs.
:
00:59:00,354 --> 00:59:01,974
Why not both?
:
00:59:01,974 --> 00:59:04,184
What can they do to help?
:
00:59:04,184 --> 00:59:07,288
What do you think or somebody with.
:
00:59:07,342 --> 00:59:10,002
This is going to be like a multifaceted
question.
:
00:59:10,002 --> 00:59:16,312
Somebody that knows somebody that needs
help, what steps can people take to help
:
00:59:16,312 --> 00:59:21,402
themselves or the lives of others around
them or even people they don't know?
:
00:59:21,402 --> 00:59:23,542
I get this question a lot.
:
00:59:23,542 --> 00:59:28,772
Like I think someone that's very open
about my recovery, there's a lot of people
:
00:59:28,772 --> 00:59:30,692
throughout my life who know people who
need help.
:
00:59:30,692 --> 00:59:34,162
And so they'll come to me and be like,
my...
:
00:59:34,848 --> 00:59:37,858
friend's little sister needs treatment,
what can I do?
:
00:59:37,858 --> 00:59:40,648
And like, I think that's its own thing.
:
00:59:40,648 --> 00:59:45,048
I think my number one piece of advice to
those people who are like, working with
:
00:59:45,048 --> 00:59:48,798
people who are ready to seek treatment,
get them into treatment.
:
00:59:48,858 --> 00:59:55,368
And the way to do that really is just pick
a treatment center, point and shoot, maybe
:
00:59:55,368 --> 00:59:58,998
like look at some Google reviews, but
they're all gonna be mixed.
:
00:59:59,726 --> 01:00:01,366
and just call an admissions person.
:
01:00:01,366 --> 01:00:04,366
Because the admissions people are like
trained to make sure that your insurance
:
01:00:04,366 --> 01:00:05,386
is taken.
:
01:00:05,386 --> 01:00:08,486
They're trained to make sure that you get
the care that you need.
:
01:00:09,426 --> 01:00:12,386
I'd say that there's really no reason to
go out of state.
:
01:00:12,386 --> 01:00:19,606
Most states have pretty, like within their
own state have pretty okay resources
:
01:00:19,606 --> 01:00:21,756
unless you're going for something more
specific.
:
01:00:21,756 --> 01:00:25,046
But just get on the phone with an
admissions person and they can point you
:
01:00:25,046 --> 01:00:26,126
in the right direction.
:
01:00:26,126 --> 01:00:26,876
That's huge.
:
01:00:26,876 --> 01:00:29,600
Or like get in my DMs, I'll help.
:
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:31,890
Point you in the right direction too.
:
01:00:31,990 --> 01:00:33,630
And we'll link her Instagram.
:
01:00:33,630 --> 01:00:35,550
Yeah, link my Instagram.
:
01:00:36,790 --> 01:00:40,710
And then the other piece too, like what
can people do that just want to support
:
01:00:40,710 --> 01:00:43,500
and maybe they don't know a ton of
addicts, like that's okay too.
:
01:00:43,500 --> 01:00:47,110
I think allies to this community are
always so needed.
:
01:00:47,110 --> 01:00:54,300
I think like carrying Narcan baseline is
something that everyone that considers
:
01:00:54,300 --> 01:00:57,476
themselves an advocate or an ally to
recovery.
:
01:00:57,518 --> 01:01:04,298
Do you know places that distribute Narcan
and can we link them as well, Dylan?
:
01:01:04,338 --> 01:01:07,478
Yeah, Dylan, you can.
:
01:01:07,698 --> 01:01:12,948
There's a lot of places you can get
Narcan, especially like, I think it's
:
01:01:12,948 --> 01:01:16,638
September is like National Recovery Month.
:
01:01:16,638 --> 01:01:18,238
There's like a National Recovery Day too.
:
01:01:18,238 --> 01:01:24,038
And usually there's events in most towns
and cities that will hand out Naloxone,
:
01:01:24,038 --> 01:01:25,398
which is Narcan.
:
01:01:26,158 --> 01:01:31,098
Pretty sure you can order it from either
your state or federal government website
:
01:01:31,098 --> 01:01:33,158
for free.
:
01:01:34,358 --> 01:01:37,958
There's a lot, a lot, a lot of places
where you can get Narcan.
:
01:01:37,958 --> 01:01:41,448
It's becoming a lot more readily
accessible and I'll be happy to send you
:
01:01:41,448 --> 01:01:45,448
some links, Dylan, to where people can get
it and just keep it in your car, keep it
:
01:01:45,448 --> 01:01:48,088
in your purse, especially if you're going
to like concerts and shit.
:
01:01:48,088 --> 01:01:49,158
You just, you never know.
:
01:01:49,158 --> 01:01:54,558
Like Dylan said, it's good for 10 minutes,
just a pretty quick window, all things
:
01:01:54,558 --> 01:01:55,534
considered.
:
01:01:55,534 --> 01:01:57,394
when you're ODing, I'm sure.
:
01:01:57,394 --> 01:02:01,824
But it's a pretty short window if you're
panicking and looking around for the next
:
01:02:01,824 --> 01:02:05,054
person around you that has norectal
cancer, just carry it yourself.
:
01:02:05,714 --> 01:02:11,794
And the other thing is just stay informed
and listen, see how it is affecting you,
:
01:02:11,794 --> 01:02:15,654
because most people are affected by
addiction in some way.
:
01:02:15,794 --> 01:02:20,684
Just don't turn a blind eye, because I
think it's so easy if you're not an addict
:
01:02:20,684 --> 01:02:23,886
to see people suffering from addiction.
:
01:02:23,886 --> 01:02:29,006
especially people that are like visibly
suffering from addiction, like the
:
01:02:29,006 --> 01:02:34,366
houseless population, it's so easy to see
them as different.
:
01:02:34,406 --> 01:02:41,726
But like, and Sharon Dillon can relate to
this too, but like it is vital to my
:
01:02:41,726 --> 01:02:45,666
recovery and to the fact that I wanna stay
alive, that I don't see myself as any
:
01:02:45,666 --> 01:02:47,546
different than the people that walk
through our doors.
:
01:02:47,546 --> 01:02:51,374
I don't see myself as different in any way
from.
:
01:02:51,374 --> 01:02:56,974
the people that are still suffering from
addiction visibly or otherwise, because
:
01:02:56,974 --> 01:02:58,094
I'm not different.
:
01:02:58,094 --> 01:03:00,834
And we're all the same species.
:
01:03:02,034 --> 01:03:06,754
And whether you're an addict or not,
depending on the model you believe in,
:
01:03:07,354 --> 01:03:11,354
whether you believe it's genetic, it's
like a matter of chance, really.
:
01:03:11,354 --> 01:03:16,274
So like exercise compassion and stay as
informed as you can.
:
01:03:16,414 --> 01:03:19,394
Vote when you can, you know?
:
01:03:19,694 --> 01:03:20,686
That's all.
:
01:03:20,686 --> 01:03:21,106
Pretty.
:
01:03:21,106 --> 01:03:22,766
Who are you voting for?
:
01:03:22,766 --> 01:03:24,506
Who am I voting for?
:
01:03:24,506 --> 01:03:26,226
Local, local.
:
01:03:26,326 --> 01:03:29,686
You can follow me on Instagram and I'll
post my ballot.
:
01:03:29,686 --> 01:03:32,856
Yeah, follow her Instagram, we're linking
it.
:
01:03:32,856 --> 01:03:33,766
Yeah.
:
01:03:33,766 --> 01:03:34,686
Bother her.
:
01:03:34,686 --> 01:03:35,306
Yeah.
:
01:03:35,306 --> 01:03:38,146
I'm pretty vocal about my own recovery
too.
:
01:03:38,146 --> 01:03:42,986
So even if you just like need a dose of
hope every once in a while, I don't post
:
01:03:42,986 --> 01:03:47,766
as often anymore because I am pretty busy
and happy with my life nowadays.
:
01:03:48,622 --> 01:03:53,942
but I post a lot about my recovery and my
own milestones and I try to be like a
:
01:03:53,942 --> 01:03:55,242
beacon of hope for people.
:
01:03:55,242 --> 01:03:58,422
And I am in recovery from like a lot of
things besides substance use.
:
01:03:58,422 --> 01:04:03,872
Like I'm in recovery from long -term
mental health disorders and trauma and
:
01:04:03,872 --> 01:04:05,862
self -harm and eating disorders.
:
01:04:05,862 --> 01:04:09,682
And most people, those are wrapped up in
one way or another.
:
01:04:09,682 --> 01:04:12,742
So I talk about all of that on my socials
as well.
:
01:04:12,742 --> 01:04:17,042
One last question and that's probably the
most important one.
:
01:04:17,542 --> 01:04:18,720
Are you ready?
:
01:04:18,734 --> 01:04:20,914
Yeah, is it stupid?
:
01:04:21,254 --> 01:04:23,154
Why would you say that?
:
01:04:23,494 --> 01:04:24,920
What's the question?
:
01:04:26,414 --> 01:04:37,754
Well, would you rather be attacked by 50
duck sized horses or one horse sized duck?
:
01:04:37,754 --> 01:04:39,514
50 duck sized horses.
:
01:04:39,514 --> 01:04:41,054
Horses are not aggressive.
:
01:04:41,054 --> 01:04:44,654
Ducks are aggressive and it doesn't need
to be the size of a horse.
:
01:04:44,654 --> 01:04:46,154
I said attacked.
:
01:04:48,274 --> 01:04:51,634
I stand by my answer.
:
01:04:51,634 --> 01:04:52,654
OK.
:
01:04:53,294 --> 01:04:54,394
Fair enough.
:
01:04:54,754 --> 01:04:56,206
That's all I have.
:
01:04:56,206 --> 01:04:57,186
They are shy.
:
01:04:57,186 --> 01:04:58,086
They're skittish.
:
01:04:58,086 --> 01:04:58,786
Yeah.
:
01:04:58,786 --> 01:05:00,206
So if one freaks out...
:
01:05:00,206 --> 01:05:01,446
are too.
:
01:05:01,446 --> 01:05:03,526
Ducks aren't skittish.
:
01:05:03,526 --> 01:05:06,026
Ducks are very aggressive.
:
01:05:06,026 --> 01:05:09,996
Yeah, I have been attacked by a goose, so
I'm speaking from a place of trauma on
:
01:05:09,996 --> 01:05:10,826
that one.
:
01:05:10,826 --> 01:05:11,406
All right.
:
01:05:11,406 --> 01:05:12,826
Well, thanks, Izzy.
:
01:05:12,826 --> 01:05:13,856
Appreciate you.
:
01:05:13,856 --> 01:05:14,816
Thank you so much.
:
01:05:14,816 --> 01:05:16,246
Thank you guys.
:
01:05:16,746 --> 01:05:20,046
You can find our links and other resources
in our show notes.
:
01:05:20,046 --> 01:05:23,846
We'll link Isabelle's Instagram so you can
tell her how wrong she is about horse
:
01:05:23,846 --> 01:05:25,106
-sized ducks.
:
01:05:25,230 --> 01:05:30,040
And if you want to hear us interview a
nonprofit or an individual that you think
:
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:35,510
is doing good work, you can shoot us an
email at bloomscrollingpodcast at gmail
:
01:05:35,510 --> 01:05:41,090
.com or DM us on Instagram at
bloomscrollingpodcast.
:
01:05:41,170 --> 01:05:46,370
This podcast is brought to you by Off Meta
Media and it's edited and produced by me,
:
01:05:46,370 --> 01:05:48,730
Dylan Beresford and Monica Warrens.
:
01:05:48,730 --> 01:05:52,850
Don't forget to follow us on Instagram at
bloomscrollingpodcast.
:
01:05:53,230 --> 01:05:54,170
Thank you.
:
01:05:54,170 --> 01:05:55,030
Thanks.
:
01:05:55,030 --> 01:05:55,910
Bye.
:
01:05:55,970 --> 01:05:56,650
Bye.
:
01:05:56,650 --> 01:05:57,370
Bye.
:
01:05:57,370 --> 01:05:58,270
We're done.
:
01:05:58,270 --> 01:05:58,700
Yeah.
:
01:05:58,700 --> 01:05:59,290
We're done.
:
01:05:59,290 --> 01:06:00,470
Yeah.
:
01:06:00,770 --> 01:06:03,030
This machine kills fascists.
:
01:06:03,590 --> 01:06:06,510
There's, um, there's like five.
:
01:06:06,510 --> 01:06:10,450
Uh, there's a little sticker over here.
:
01:06:10,450 --> 01:06:11,720
There was a patch.
:
01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:14,970
He had like this, this fabric kills
fascists.
:
01:06:14,970 --> 01:06:18,926
Um, the last time that I relapsed,
:
01:06:18,926 --> 01:06:23,546
I called Dylan over and I was blackout
drunk and I was a total asshole.
:
01:06:23,546 --> 01:06:29,266
And then I got him a little cactus and I
was like, this cacti kills fascists.
:
01:06:29,706 --> 01:06:29,896
So.
:
01:06:29,896 --> 01:06:32,386
Cacti's get a apology cactus.
:
01:06:32,386 --> 01:06:33,306
You're gonna get.
:
01:06:33,306 --> 01:06:34,346
Yeah.
:
01:06:34,346 --> 01:06:35,406
I didn't.
:
01:06:35,406 --> 01:06:38,546
On the other side, I wrote, I'm sorry for
being a prick.
:
01:06:38,546 --> 01:06:41,126
That's why it was a cactus.